![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
US Property Boom Coming? | |
Post new message in this thread
Date: August 21, 2004 10:24 AM
Author: Finster
Subject: US Property Boom Coming?
Maybe. Let's consider some well known facts. China and other exporting nations have been growing wealthier at a rapid rate and been piling up dollars. But what does this wealth represent, if America produces little that they want to buy?
A possible answer - America does have something they want to buy. Millions of square miles of real estate.
If you were a country of teeming billions, wouldn't all that real estate look pretty attractive to you?
So here's the scenario. They start buying up US real estate with those dollars. Instead of a real estate collapse, the current bull market turns out to be only the beginning. There is precedent for this. The Japanese were famous (or infamous) in the 1980's for buying huge amounts of US real estate with the dollars they were piling up. Might China be the next Japan? Might the current real estate boom be just a small foreshadowing of the Big One to come?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178444)
Date: August 21, 2004 10:26 AM
Author: dyjech
Subject: Finster.......................
....if you stick to finance...you're pretty good..;<)Then there's the laws of the Peoples Republic re:foreign property ownership.Why buy the property when they own significant amounts of mortgage and related paper?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178447)
Date: August 21, 2004 10:33 AM
Author: Finster
Subject: Laws
Laws tend to be changed when the economic impetus is there. Look at it from the point of view of the Chinese. The USA has the world's most formidable military. If you wanted to invade, the military option isn't very attractive. But with plenty of US dollars, you can get there without even firing a shot.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178451)
Date: August 21, 2004 10:39 AM
Author: dyjech
Subject: We're there now
If they choose to squeeze..we're sopranos.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178454)
Date: August 21, 2004 10:49 AM
Author: Finster
Subject: What Would You Do?
What would you do if you were swimming in dollars, had so many people you're running out of room for them...
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178461)
Date: August 21, 2004 10:57 AM
Author: dyjech
Subject: Speed of light
You're moving fast here.There was no migration of Japanese commesurate with their real estate purchases.I doubt if Chinese purchases would bring a 'yellow horde' to U.S.Fascinating subject.Are we discussing the hidden prop of the U.S. housing market....or the ultimate Trojan horse?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178467)
Date: August 21, 2004 11:17 AM
Author: Finster
Subject: Migration
You raise a valid point about the Japanese precedent. On the other hand, given the open-borders policies of both the major political parties, the possibility of your "yellow horde" remains open.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178482)
Date: August 21, 2004 11:43 AM
Author: the
hobbit
Subject: the only yellow hoarde I want to see
Is buried in Jim O'Donnell's back yard
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178495)
Date: August 23, 2004 01:09 AM
Author: Lucius
Foster
Subject: The Japanese Intrusion and retreat
When the first Japanese Kaibatsus arrived and stated that they wish to buy prime properties the resident Japanese banks offered them the names of certain consultants and appraisers who might be of help to them. They selected the best they could find and some qualified in the Japanese language.
A list was presented from the Japanese Broker and it listed almost every really prime property in town. Appraisals were made and the properties structure of ownership examined and estimated proper price.
This information was then ignored and the offers were then created in amounts usualy over 100% the designated value. Some income producing properties were purchased over 20 times the Gross Revenues. At the time the market was at about 6 to 7 times. My what a time that was. I was paid but obviously my imput was ignored.
As history showed the losses of the Japanese were enormous and most of the properties have been repurchased at very larg discounts under present market at time of repurchase. Do I have a reason for this conduct? Yes it was all done between the resident Japanese Brokers and their Clients. Rather large sums were exchanged.
I was appaled. Lucius.'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179111)
Date: August 21, 2004 12:40 PM
Author: Kenmeer
Livermaile
Subject: Intruding Tubes
"There was no migration of Japanese commesurate with their real estate purchases."
I seem to recall that the Japs paid way too much for what they bought. Seems every time a nation extends a sucker tube into another nation to suck their blood without actually going forth with sword to gut the other nation clean and mean (trade without the preceding flag of imperialism), the nation being sucked soon finds a way to reverse the osmotic pressure and starts draining the Nation of the Intruding Tube.
When China can buy/install majority control of American agribusiness and ship food to its people to the detriment of our own, THAT will be effective real estate acquisition. Global trade acdcords have set the grounds for just such invasions. Perhaps it has already happened or at least is happening?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178529)
Date: August 23, 2004 01:29 AM
Author: Lucius
Foster
Subject: Back to Sun Tzu, modified by Three
Principles of the People
The Chinese have just begun reverses which makes me think that their time table has been extended. First of all the Rice growing area around Canton on both sides of the Pearl River have been informed that they will continue to be an agrarian society. That the establishment of small industrial plants will cease and they will be transfered to other areas, like the New Territories etc. etc. The village of Namlong as per last nights telephone call will comply by removal of three factories and the provience chief has instructed them as to where to go for the new sites.
Now this is big stuff. It was done as the Provence Chief could see an upcoming shortage of rice, a rather stable food in the area. This pretty well corrects the problem. What would have taken a year or so here in LaLa land is being accomplished in about four months. You must remember this is the rice bowel of China. Best rice comes from Vietnam has great taste, but most comes from the area of the Pearl River.
The limitations on children is going to be inforced again. One child per family no fudging. They had relaxed on that but now they will be more strict.
Remember China has a rather superior attitude toward most cultures after all they are older by thousands of years and they feel that they have made most of the mistakes. They do not push their culture on others, Communism in China is not what we think of it. It is one party line, but an awful lot of information is accepted from many many non party sources.
I hold no brief for their governmental actions, they do a lot of screwing up and some of their higher ranks are hard to take. But as one of them said. We still put our pants one one leg at a time.
Cheers Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179118)
Date: August 21, 2004 11:42 AM
Author: the hobbit
Subject: I'd tell them to...
quit F*king around so much
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178494)
Date: August 21, 2004 07:29 PM
Author: The Reaper
!
Subject: Finster & AL Those Dollars
Not to worry , they bought high and they will sell low . That's what always happens , it has happened many times to the Europeans , they always get in at the end of the cycle . It happened to the Japanese in the late 80's and they are still licking their wounds . The Japanese are still at it , they never learn . As far as them buying a number of companies , I say let them buy all they want . Most of what they are buying won't be around in 5 years any way . I say sell all you can , let them have all of that soon to be out dated junk . Innovations are happening so rapidly that no one in their right mind wants to own yesterday's technology . As far as owing them money , the dollars we give to them are worth far less that the ones they gave us , what a deal ! If you don't believe what I am saying , look at what happened to Japan's economy in the 1990's after we stuck it to them , then look at what happened to our economy in the 1990's . Apparently the Europeans and the Japanese never caught on the that "buy low sell high stuff" . We should really send them at least a thank you card , ya think ? The Reaper !
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178674)
Date: August 21, 2004 10:46 AM
Author: tbo
Makes me wonder if a global currency may evolve backed by US real estate. Or maybe that's the way it already is.
You can dig and dig to find more gold. But, I don't think there is anymore earth left.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178459)
Date: August 21, 2004 06:30 PM
Author: Richard E. Warden
Finster, You're right about the chinese investing in the US, (78% of the US GDP is owned by foreign interests, much of it Chinese) however our industries and financial institutions are a far better place to place their monies than real estate. It would be nice if they keep the real estate boom going but I wouldn't place any money on it. I think it would be a sucker bet.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178663)
Date: August 21, 2004 09:56 PM
Author: Vangel Vesovski
If you were a country of teeming billions, wouldn't all that real estate look pretty attractive to you?
Not really. It is said to say but if you are ambitious, work hard and willing to take a risk it is a lot easier to get wealthy in China than it is in the US. That is why many of the Hong Kong buyers of Toronto and Vancouver real estate in the late 1980s and early 1990s have packed their bags and moved back home or gone to Shanghai or Guangzhou.
This does not mean that the Chinese will try to get some value for all those rapidly depreciating dollars by purchasing land or buildings but I do not think that they will pull the trigger until well after you see a major pullback in American real estate.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178746)
Date: August 21, 2004 10:02 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Paper Wealth
But they have little real wealth until they convert that paper wealth into something they actually need. And what they need more than anything else is land. And it can't hurt that they're already de facto mortgage holders for quite a chunk of the US's already...
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178748)
Date: August 22, 2004 07:44 PM
Author: Vangel
Vesovski
They do not need more land unless they are willing to move and put themselves at the mercy of US taxation. As for real wealth, the Chinese have been building infrastructure and purchased capital goods that can be used for future production. They have also entered contracts to purchase commodities over the next few years that I suspect will be paid with the accumulated FRNs that they have received for shipping you their finished goods.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179030)
Date: August 24, 2004 08:06 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Chinese Fruited Plains
The Chinese do not agree with you. They apparently think they do not have enough land. Why in the world would they have a "One Child" policy if their burgeoning population had all the room it wanted?
I think the Chinese are smart enough to realize that if they buy commodities, they will have commodities. But if they buy land, they will have land and commodities. If we were them and had 1.3 billion people and not enough food for them (China is a net food importer), we'd be coveting America's fruited plains too.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179691)
Date: August 22, 2004 11:45 AM
Author: bart
Subject: Some land facts
Per the CIA fact book, China and the US have similar land areas - http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html.
Their population is about 4x the US.
US land area = 9,631,418 sq km, US population= 293,027,571 (July 2004 est.) Each person has about .032 of a square kilometer, or about 32,000 square meters which puts China at abouit 8,000 square meters per person.
I thought the differences were higher.
bart
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178871)
Date: August 22, 2004 11:03 PM
Author: No Regret
Subject: Life is like a chess match
You should expect your opponent to make the best move for himself and not the one that will benefit you -- that's called a blunder.
Unlike Japan, the chinese currency is not freely convertible -- the central bank issues yuan to mop up the excess dollars. In the 80's, it's the Japanese private sector that was buying up US RE. It's highly unlikely the chinese central bank will invest in the illiquid US RE market. Maybe MBS, but I believe they have cut back drastically. As a political leverage, it's much easier to dump bonds than RE.
How will China spend its dollars? Well, it has been buying mining properties, securing long term supply contracts with the South Americans, building a pipeline to the Caspian sea... Basically buying up energy and raw materials around the world like one would expect. China has about 470 bn in reserve right now, but has been running a small overall deficit since the biginning of the year.
I believe reforming the banking sector is China's #1 priority. It injected 45 bn into the Industrial bank and the People's bank last year in preparation for floatation. The original plan was to float the Industrial bank by the end of this year. I believe they encountered resistance and had to arrange another round of re-organizing the NPLs. The China Life debacle certainly didn't help. It is also my belief that they will not revalue the yuan until they shore up the banking sector in some way. Their reserve is the money in the left pocket that must be used to pay for the NPLs in the right pocket.
If China didn't invest in the US RE market when it was running a trade surplus why would it do so when running a deficit?
NR
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179076)
Date: August 23, 2004 02:02 AM
Author: Lucius Foster
Subject: A Chess match, but you are still in the opening game.
Wait.
Nicely put, this is but a simple Rey Lopez opening, thats where we are and the Chinese moves of importance are all in the End Game. They do not need our land. They are starting to restrict their future population once again. Now that is something we will in time consider but should be considered now. As to the Currency, it really does float. If you do business in China I am sure you do not conduct it at the pegged value. The Hong Kong Dollar and the US Dollar are there and utilized daily. Years ago I inserted five co-generation power setups for a small rice producing village who wished to start a brewery. Also the Haaka were parked in a nearby village on the edge of the river and they needed power to start building boats as they took over the (FREE) river trade. When I needed money, it was available and moved freely currency to currency.
China has always been like that always will it is a rather elderly Merchantile Society. Ask a question and you usualy get an answer based on a prior historical event. My god in my village rocks are always bundled in with the rice that is a tax payment. It is expected on both sides.
Lot to learn and a lot to teach. Two future, dominent powers. Can't we jes get along?
Cheers Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179130)
Date: August 23, 2004 12:56 PM
Author: No Regret
Subject: I'm not much of a Rey Lopez player
I play the Sicilian as black and d4 as white. Then again, it's been years since I played any serious chess.
You can indeed get around the RMB convertibility issue as long as the amount is not large. Banks in Hong Kong has started RMB service. I was also told law offices in Hong Kong can handle such transfers.
Lot to learn and a lot to teach. Two future, dominent powers. Can't we jes get along?
There are no eternal friends or enemies, just eternal self-interest. Which is not a bad thing if you think about it, self-interest is as predictable and tangible as a basis for any relationship.
NR
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179255)
Date: August 21, 2004 11:56 AM
Author: beelzebub
Subject: Finster's Fantasy
The Chinese buying your real estate to help you make money....where's that guy who has a cousin named Chico and goes ha,ha, ha, ha. Now if you're talking they might buy in to an OPEC country you might have something there.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178501)
Date: August 21, 2004 12:01 PM
Author: anthonyedwarde
i spoke to a guy the other day who'd bought a condo in Dubia & reckons he's made 20% in three months. or was it three weeks? one of the two.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178506)
Date: August 21, 2004 12:26 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: What Would You Do?
What would you do with all those dollars if you were the Chinese?
I know what I would do. I'd buy energy and other commodities with part of it, and US real estate with the other.
The Chinese, after all, are accumulating a huge hoard of dollars for some reason. America doesn't have much else to sell them other than its land.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178519)
Date: August 21, 2004 01:39 PM
Author: James Hyland
Subject: They MUST buy something that hurts when it falls . . .
Funny you should be thinking along these lines, Finster. The other day, it occurred to me from something I read (DR?) about the spice trade, that you can summarize net macroeconomics since the European discovery of the New World thusly: New World gold and silver is extracted by Spain and goes to the Orient in exchange for spices and silk. From there, it goes to Britain in exchange for opium and cotton. From there, it goes to the US in exchange for munitions. From there, it goes where? Remind me, all who have posted about the gold in Fort Knox: nobody knows with certainty, because of leasing, isn't that it? Anyway, presumably, the silver's long gone.
Now it seems to me that so far, America has got away with robbery. On the historical faith in a dollar backed by Fort Knox, we have performed the next link in the chain, trading with the Orient for the gewgaws of WalMart, without actually giving them any gold and silver for it. It seems to me that the next step is for the Orient to realize their stupidity and take steps to get the gold and silver. What will they try, and how will investors recognize it?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178554)
Date: August 21, 2004 01:48 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Another Facet
Indeed, James. One other thing that makes the real estate angle intriguing is that unlike many other things, the Chinese already effectively hold mortgages on a non-trivial portion of the US home base.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178561)
Date: August 21, 2004 12:26 PM
Author: James Hyland
Subject: Process
1. There's another precedent; Hong Kong money that created a west-coast only property bubble in the late 80's/early 90's ahead of the handover. Some of those people moved, and many still have monster urban 'cottages' from San Diego to Vancouver where they spend some time, but the point is, all were prepared to move had the handover gone another way.
2. All this stuff about whether they're planning an invasion, what they're planning to do with all their people and what they're planning to do about all the money we owe them: fuggedaboutit, guys! Evolution, history, the market; none advance by plan, but by the interaction of billions of participant factors in almost inevitable, but very complicated, fashion. What is their new industrialist class likely to do to keep the trade flows as they are? Will the Chinese worker ever become the 'entitled' Western-style consumer? Are they really running out of land – they will embrace genetic technology, eg GMO's, faster than we will, as far as we food is concerned - and aren't they rapidly approaching a demographic bottleneck from 'One Child' anyway? These are the kinds of questions we need to ask.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178520)
Date: August 21, 2004 12:32 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Question Answered
You answered one of your own questions:
The One Child policy is all we need to know to understand that they do not have enough land to support their natural population growth.
Either our land looks awfully good to them, or they are the first nation in history that didn't want to expand.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178524)
Date: August 21, 2004 12:44 PM
Author: Kenmeer
Livermaile
Subject: expansion aims
"Either our land looks awfully good to them, or they are the first nation in history that didn't want to expand."
Historically, China has never wanted to expand beyond its natural -- and immensely containing -- natural borders. The Himalayas, the Tien Shan, the steppes, the northern cold...
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178532)
Date: August 21, 2004 12:48 PM
Author: anthonyedwarde
>I'd buy energy and other commodities with part of it, and US real estate with the other.
but, F, they're not that stupid. why would they buy at the top of the market? you know it's going to crash soon. it'll be cheaper then. you know what skinflints they are.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178534)
Date: August 21, 2004 01:22 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Maybe It Won't Crash
I realize I'm making a contrarian argument here, becase "everybody knows" US real estate is about to go down. But with the immense supply of dollars Greenspan has created now in the hands of a crowded people, and with the US borders open to the world, there must be at least a few Chinese thinking what I'm thinking. China being as crowded as it is, our land probably already looks cheap to them. With billions of potential buyers with trillions of dollars burning holes in their pockets ...
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178545)
Date: August 21, 2004 01:50 PM
Author: James
Hyland
Subject: No, you're being 'contra-contrarian.'
Here in the Pacific NW, I like to listen to 100.7 'The Buzz.' Target audience: working class males 18-44. Many ads still for debt consolidation and low interest mortgages. These people definitely don't think US real estate is about to pop, and the mainstream money behind the ads probably doesn't either. We can get too isolated here: contrarianism is not about countering the mood on DR, but the mood on places like 'The Buzz.'
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178562)
Date: August 21, 2004 02:05 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Contrarian Relativity
I hear talk about a housing bubble on CNBC. So it's not just on the DR. There is absolutely no doubt there are a lot of people out there pushing credit and talking all the hype they can muster, but it was also quite a while after the stock market bubble popped that marketers were still trying to milk the mania for all it was worth. In fact, they still are today.
But regardless, contrarian or contracontrarian, my scenario is based on fundamental considerations, not market sentiment.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178572)
Date: August 21, 2004 02:06 PM
Author:
anthonyedwarde
James, do the 100.7 listeners know that RE sales by volume in the UK are going through a critical support level (downward), that buy-to-letters by the thousands are getting miniscule returns on their investments, that Greater London property fell by 10% in the last month, that if UK property falls hard over the Fall & Winter months the ramifications to the rest of the world will be far more significant than you want to admit, that Sterling is losing value now more likely than not because foreign investors especially in commercial property are pulling out because they see what's coming with five interest rate hikes to date & rents falling (2000 Nasdaq crash was 6 hikes). on the other hand this may be a hiatus, a rest before the next 200% up leg. who knows?
Pacific NW is a provincial market & provincial markets take a while to catch up to the capital metropoli, a year to 18 months. part of the reason is speculators look elsewhere when prices rise too high in the centers. all momentum & cheap money.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178574)
Date: August 21, 2004 02:53 PM
Author: wayne
martin
Subject: RE ads
It's not that the real estate ads continue, they will be running throughout the slide, even when most will be unable to qualify for financing. All the ads need produce is enough qualified buyers to stay afloat.
What you need to notice is not the ads themselves, but their targeted audience. When they appeal to those with bad credit, no credit and high risk borrowers (past bankruptcies = no problems), you are in the latter stages of a real estate boom. After all, once you have ran through the "A" type risk creditors until volumes dropped and moved on thru those "B" and "C" types to finally arrive at the most uncreditworthy "D" loans, normally an 18% type rate risk, who else is there left to lend to. The bell curve is waning and market saturation is near.
I doubt Greenspann will raise rates again priot to the election but if so, it will only be the other quarter point he didn't tack on in Junes hike. That will occur, if it does, toward the end of Sept. That would suffice until after the elections and calm those who for economic reasons believe rates should be higher, even though recovery is still struggling.
Personally, China has to build her innerstructure and get a solid foundation beneath her in order to support an improved lifestyle for her people. China will buy cement, lumber, & steel to construct highways, bridges, energy distribution enhancements etc. Henry Ford couldn't sell many of his contraptions had he not convinced the people of Detroit to improve its street system of dirt roads that were mudholes when wet and mounds of ruts when dry.
China haves a full plate of her own needs to tend to to get bogged down in buying US real estate. This is not to say individuals themselves might not do so. No wide scale buying such as that would likely happen during the next ten to twenty five years, as China will have to tend to immediate needs, create a superstructure upon which to build real progress into the 21st century.
The Chinese, for a communist country is very astute when it comes to dealing with capitalism. She orders 100,000 metric tons of grain. Price being too high, she cancels the order, watches prices drop and then reorders the same order but at the new, lower price. She needs a lot from us but not our real estate....right now!
China is a HUGE country. Japan is very small. There was only so much, investment wise, that could be done within Japan. Japan had to look outside for opportunities as her bell curve narrowed and her markets became saturated. China will be a long time saturating her own markets which were primarily unserved for the most part. An entire manufacturing base will need modernization and expansion to meet the needs of their new lifestyles.
Perhaps in a few years Chico will sponsor bankrupt Americans immigrating to China and they can buy the old style non polluting grass mowers and take over their grounds keeping industry. In 25 to fifty years we may even monopolize it.
When it comes to investing, you need to see the world with a realistic and unbiased view. The same rules apply for nations as it does for individual economic success. If it wouldn't be good for your personal success, it probably won't be in the national interest as well. Unless you are a tort lawyer, which has noones best interests at heart but the attorney's. But that's not investing. More like racketeering, or financial rape.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178597)
Date: August 23, 2004 02:26 AM
Author: Lucius
Foster
Subject: sChinese Investors in LaLa Land
Most of the Chinese Buyers of real estate that I have handled are but very conservative. They selected a few communities in the greater Los Angeles Area and then concentrated on them. Their buying was very conservative. Most deals were with mortgages not to exceed 50% of equity and the prices brought down to true appraisal level. When I suggested offers based on no interest loans taken back by the Sellers they examined the math, saw the advantages and declined to participate. They said for me to continue to bargain to bring down the prices to where they belonged. Very straight but they want a bargain. Most at this stage are from Taiwan as that is the easiest for U.S. Dollars at this time, they move straight across.
There is land in China, a great deal of it but far from the modern cities. Give them time to update some of the old towns and then there will be more expansion but in China.
A great many of the "Overseas Chinese" are becoming estranged from their dependence on China. They seem to almost be forming a specific ethnic grouping of their own.
I had lunch with a member of an investment group and mostly we talked about his time at the London School of Economics. His family are in business throughout Europe and are pushing into the Middle East.
Cheers Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179139)
Date: August 23, 2004 03:08 AM
Author:
anthonyedwarde
yes, the Middle East will be piling up cash now. spent a year in Dubia & Abu Dhabi flying choppers to the rigs. easy work, tax free, 2 months on, one month off.
now oil is determined to stay high it may be time for another visit. what think L?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179151)
Date: August 21, 2004 01:58 PM
Author:
anthonyedwarde
living in Asia I know, or believe these people aren't going to go for it. they're focused on stuff going on here. besides which their markets will crash the same time as ours, give or take. Even if they take 10 years to deflate as Wayne says its much the same to me. In fact, much better. better by far.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178565)
Date: August 21, 2004 06:59 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Asia?
You suggested you were a few time zones from the US ... what country or region do you hail from?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178669)
Date: August 22, 2004 05:44 AM
Author:
anthonyedwarde
F, this is SirEd, one & the same. for some reason the gubbins on the website signs me in like this.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178820)
Date: August 22, 2004 07:28 AM
Author:
Finster
Subject: HA!!!
I should have recognized your style!!!
You are in Thailand?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178831)
Date: August 22, 2004 11:31 AM
Author:
anthonyedwarde
thankfully
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178868)
Date: August 21, 2004 08:23 PM
Author: Keith
Cowan
Subject: OTOH maybe the crash will be very large
Maybe It Won't Crash
After the Hong Kong bubble was over and property values were declining, the loss of speculative investment from outsiders made the decline much more severe and protracted in the geographies where they had been purchasing.
Now maybe this past phenomenon will not happen again but I would not bet against it!
For the fun of it...Keith
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178705)
Date: August 21, 2004 01:59 PM
Author: Poofter
Subject: Imagine a Benevolent Federal Reserve...
In cahoots with a corrupted government.
That has come to the realization that it can never meet all it's promises and pay its bills.
What if the politicos decided to screw the world out the money it owes it through simple inflation.
And PROTECT its citizens by creating the money to screw its creditors through easy real estate financing, making nearly every US citizen a home owner in the process.
The ever inflating price of real estate would protect US home owners from a large portion of inflations insidious effects while nearly totally shafting the rest of the world out of the real value of the money owed, especially the "yellow hoard" sitting on a mountain of T-bills and bundled mortgage debt.
Could this be the genius of their insanity? A plausible and purposeful least painful scenario that preserves incumbents seats and US global power?
In the long run - does issuing mortgage dept on land to create money to fuel an economy work any better then issuing stocks on it as per John Law?
Or am I just talking out my ass?
I think we will soon find out!
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178567)
Date: August 21, 2004 02:24 PM
Author: anthonyedwarde
poofter you're a bad boy. problem is it won't fly. bankers are part of the establishment, citizens aren't.
>Could this be the genius of their insanity
what genius? just another group of assholes taking the piss because the fool electorate lets them.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178579)
Date: August 21, 2004 03:10 PM
Author: Mas o Meno
Subject: The debt cannot be paid, but it certainly can........
be hyperinflated away. That is Greenspan's genius. It's just a practical matter. In his early years, Greenspan was an Ayn Rand follower; in Rand's "The Fountainhead" there were two different type heros; an "idealist" and a more practical type. Greenspan is the more practical type who now appears poised to destroy the "fiat" currency, as is his want, in order to save this country for another "day in the sun". Is there anything too terribly Wong with that?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178601)
Date: August 21, 2004 03:21 PM
Author: wayne martin
Subject: Poofter
A benevolent federal reserve??
Inflation is what is at the heart of our non competitiveness now. And that isn't much of a leap to imagine a fed. reserve in cahoots with a corrupted government. More like stepping over a broom straw. They know this boat we are in is sinking. Hell it's their boat and they lured us aboard.
A world currency will come out of all this, and all this is going on to make a world currency pallatible to the masses. Everyone loves their own currency, even if worthless on the world scene. It is still what provides their daily needs. Only when it won't do that, will it fall into disfavor by the masses. What better way to transition into a new, a single valued money, worth the same wherever you go. A hamburg would cost the same in New York, London, Paris or Tokyo. How high and what misery index would be required?
I believe, out of all the pending misery on the horizon, we will find a new Phoenix rise from the ashes. Whether it will be better, or worse, won't matter, so long as it appears different, we'll go for it and let time prove the change good, or bad. But if we don't find a way to put better, more honorable, more devoted to truth advocates into public office, it will turn out more bad than good and the good will only seem good because of the depth of the misery. And that is NOT A GOOD THING! But that is just MHO working overtime.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178605)
Date: August 21, 2004 03:39 PM
Author: beelzebub
Subject: Is this Disneyland or Alice's Wonderland?
Could the new "currency" be Finster's Real Estate? Or could it be "oil reserves"? Or may be US dollars in a wheel barrow [ a la Germany ] to buy a loaf of bread? Or finally a NEW DOLLAR whose value is determined by WHO?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178614)
Date: August 21, 2004 05:41 PM
Author: cherokee
Subject: the international currency...
... once again will be gold in a few years. the problem is what they will do with private gold holdings.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178648)
Date: August 21, 2004 07:40 PM
Author: axbucxdu
Subject: if it IS gold
then global economics IS dead. Copper, Nickel, ZINC??? anyone?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178675)
Date: August 23, 2004 09:27 AM
Author: cherokee
Subject: how about...
... uranium? or plutonium? they pack a lot more energy than a barrel of oil.
with electric vehicles, the need for oil will diminish. electricity can be generated from nuclear plants.
contrary to popular opinion, nuke power is much cleaner than hydrocarbons.... the problem is of the spent fuel ... just send it to the moon...
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179187)
Date: August 21, 2004 09:41 PM
Author: Poofter
Subject: Single currency...
eventually. 3 currencies 1st though. Anglo-American, Euro-Russian, Asia. It will be 1984, just a few years later.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178743)
Date: August 21, 2004 10:10 PM
Author: axbucxdu
Subject: The Davidson & Rees-Mogg
thesis was that encryption would obsolesce gov't control of transactions vis a vis legal tender. Quantum computing may make Orwell, like Malthus, limits to respect, but not fear...Big Brother will have a hard time controlling things he cannot know.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178753)
Date: August 22, 2004 11:05 AM
Author: wayne martin
Subject: axbucxdu
were you unaware that every computer hard drive manufactured must have a back door entryway for government access? Been law several years now. Before 9-11. Same for cell phones. Focus on your phone chip and hear everything you say and can read your phone call list/history stored there.
Big brother has direct access to any info we allow into our computers. Yep! If the terrorists ever went to smoke signals and carrier pidgeons we'd be in real touble. CIA & FBI & co, are geared for hi tech info. Low tech is a different matter.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178862)
Date: August 22, 2004 03:56 PM
Author: rich gates
Subject: Link please
Wayne,
Do you have a link for info on the "computer hard drive back door" ?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178976)
Date: August 23, 2004 12:13 AM
Author: wayne
martin
Subject: Rich
You won't find links to government security initiates. This happened shortly after the Okla City Fed. building was bombed by McVey. I was at a computer class ran by Microsoft programmers and they were briefing on newest programming actions being imposed at the time. They warned programmers that they must not make any attempt to void the new back door being mandated by the fed govt. The back door is required for every computer manufacturer. Fail to implement it, or take any action to thwart it and the manufacturer would lose its license to operate. Penalty was jail time, supposedly 5 yr minimum.
This was discussed in several forums I followed at the time. It was common knowledge at those sites. I thought I was getting priviledged info, only to find I was a johnny come lately. Every security system must also leave a back door access. So those people paying out the gazoo for security systems may be effective against some hackers, but wide open to government prying.
Big brother has been alive and well, getting bigger and stronger every day. I just hope we never elect a president who would abuse it to get at his "enemies list".
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179092)
Date: August 23, 2004 02:52 AM
Author: Lucius Foster
Subject: And for that final moment we do the big BK and issue new
money
Your statements on casual observation make one pause and think, shrug their shoulders and move on.
The one event I like the best is the final step. Where the government announces that all bets are off and that new money will be issued at a new value point. Kindly turn in all bills for reissue and confescation. Possible. Yes, Ever been done before? Yes, End of World War II, France, England and all the other little countries. I made a killing, but then I am an American and it was expected. I had access to U.S. Dollars and could send any sums home to a resident bank. I moved from country to country. When all five pound notes and above had to be turned in I bought them from those who could not account for them and I paid the usual price of about One Dollar per Five Pounds. Pounds were then pegged at $4.03. We did the same in France. I ran across the border so often into Switzerland to deposit I almost learned the language. Everything into Swiss Gold Francs.If it was good enough for the Natzis, why it sure was good enough for me.
Because of this brief early training in a moment of economic crisis, I was prepared to go to the Orient and do it again. I am a firm believer that up or down neither is bad. Good times and Crash times, you merely adjust, look carefully around and insert into the solution of transferance of wealth.
To learn to recognize these moments in history and the chances to gain great wealth by proper exploitation of the time,is not that the purpose of all on this site?
We cannot make changes in the progress and path of nations, we are but small human beings, but, we can identify, and come up with a solution. That is why we are here on this site. That is why we sometimes have to put up with the noise of people screaming at each other over matters of race and custom. Yes some who think there is a big conspiracy going on. Its really not, it is just lack of knowledge and failure to read history.
Things are happening. Let us gather our weapons of the mind so we can react. Thus survive, get wealthy and of course have a lot of fun in the progress.
Cheers Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179147)
Date: August 21, 2004 08:34 PM
Author: len
Subject: no rationale for gold based currency
In this age there is no chance gold will ever be the foundation of a new world currency More likely ? who can say ? i would say that some one with real smarts would come up with a sys which indexed the productive capacity of former nations curency and based a new global exchange rate on that fluctuating model . Gold? well it will be worth something ? but IT just does not occupy that role any longer > Well now Iwill get ready to be slaughtered by everyman> Go easy.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178710)
Date: August 21, 2004 08:46 PM
Author: axbucxdu
Subject: len
There's another alternative-google the term Free Banking...it doesn't need gold and it doesn't, thank the Almighty, need government paper.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178717)
Date: August 21, 2004 09:29 PM
Author: len
Subject: OK
I will check it out> Thanx
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178737)
Date: August 21, 2004 09:13 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Len
Go easy? Why, you're right, man! Yes, gold will still be there, but it's very unlikely it will be used as a currency. We may wind up with a de facto dual system where bank notes (e.g. a la axbucxdu's free banking) serve as the daily medium of exchange and gold, silver, etceteras serve the store-of-value function).
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178729)
Date: August 22, 2004 10:30 AM
Author: wayne martin
Subject: world currency
will still be fiat. Too many people in the world for gold to be the standard. It will only require governments to agree to accept one of the current currencies, or elect a totally different currency with an agreed valuation in all nations. With computerization as it is we do not need currency. Merely an assigned core value for every commodity mankind uses, and an assigned value for each step up in the manufacture of finished goods. Would be price fixing on a mammoth scale. But with everything having a core value and a wage value added for labor in the production process, or grain value from core seed and time value for growth & harvest etc, we could do away withbanking and inflation and end these boom/bust cycles.
Once we have a single currency, or a designated core value, with the same purchasing value world wide, The government will establish central accounts for each person, much like our current social security system. No money will be exchanged per se. Your employer, the government, the welfare system and social programs would simply electronically deposit your wages/entitlements into that account. Each individual will have a debit card and all purchases will be charged to it, and all deposits credited to it. Your purchasing power will be limited by whatever amount you have in your central account. You make a loan, the funds will be deposited into your central account. Make a purchase, it is immediately debited from that same account. You earn interest based on your average monthly balance.
Not very complicated really. Noone will carry money. Just a debit account card. Muggings and such crime could become a thing of the past. Identy theft will be obsolete as your own fingerprint will be your signature for all debits. Now you have to figure a way to kidnap Warren Buffet and take hostage one plastic surgeon to transplant your fingerprints. Of course once you did that you'd have to kill the donor with your prints. Then you could actually be Warren Buffet for all practical purposes.
Actually it would uncomplicate life as we know it today. Only problem is people hate change, and what government do you trust enough to put your entire way of life in their trust?? That's the biggie. What happens if you somehow get deleted from the system. That could be a real horror story.
Convincing 6 billion people with different agendas to agree to it will be one massive undertaking and a world in such chaos that anything would beat the status quo. Then it just might happen.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178852)
Date: August 22, 2004 11:09 AM
Author: Finster
Subject: HELLLLLLLLPPP!!!!
Oh My God!!! That's about as scary a proposition as I've ever heard. One world currency. One world government. No escape. No competition. UN, IMF, World Bank, WTO, FED, and DOD all rolled into one huge, evil Orwellian tyranny.
Right now I'm picturing some kind of wierd cross between Alan Greenspan and Kofi Annan in charge of the world's money supply, and starting to feel a little ill. Kinda like Mogambo before the meds kick in.
I happen to agree that traditional gold standards are or will soon be obsolete, but expect a single global currency would be about as desirable as a single global anything else that's been tried, just another place that concentrates power well enough to allow it to be easily manipulated by statists, corporatists, despots, and any other ne'er-do-well the world can conjure up.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178863)
Date: August 22, 2004 11:52 AM
Author: The Reaper !
Subject: One world currency.
If we had a OWC , countries would not be able to manipulate their currencies . In an environment like that , countries would be going bankrupt left and right . Just look at how many Asian Countries have devalued over the last 10 or so years to avoid bankruptcy . The World Bank won't even allow membership to a country who has a hard currency . Can you imagine having money that no government can manipulate , what would all of those bureaucrats do all day with their time if not manipulate us into serfdom ? While the world is now praising the benefits of Capitalism , the World Bank and the IMF are practicing a kind of Global Socialism for distressed countries . What this mean is that there is a higher authority so to speak that chooses who wins and who loses . Just for an example , lets say you have a business here in the states , you compete with a Korean company on a global basis . Now lets say that you have spent tens of millions competing with this company , you've beaten them into submission fair and square in the market place and they are ready to close up shop . Now lets just say at the same time Korea is also ready to collapse , then in comes the World bank , the IMF with huge loans and plan for a 50% currency devaluation for Korea . Those tens of millions that you spent competing just went out the window , you have to begin a new with a competitor who was given by the Neo World Government a 50% competitive edge ! I know what you are probably thinking , how can you survive in such a world ?......... You can't ! And better yet , why even bother trying ! This is a fools game . The Reaper !
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178876)
Date: August 22, 2004 12:04 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Thanks, Reaper!
I feel better now.
(Good dose of common sense! ;-)
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178879)
Date: August 22, 2004 12:22 PM
Author: wayne
martin
Subject: reaper
Those tens of millions spent previously competing would have allready been lost in the transition. If I, under a single currency with fixed value, as gold once was at $12.00 per unit oz. and you are using the same unit of core value, we end up having a level playing field. My widget and your widget would cost the same to produce. To produce one cheaper would require elimination of some step in the process, or a more efficient operation. Now you have a competing edge, or advantage over the competitor, price wise. Alas it could be like making a chocolate cake and leaving out the crisco, or sugar. You might not like what cheaper really is and so you would have to go back and produce the old recipe.
All the money wasted shipping everything to everybody all over the world could be manufactured closer to the Point of sale.
There is no way it would work in the real world unless everybody had a solid core of honesty to truth. Set the laws and turn everybody. In three years the Jews would have 80% of the funds in their accounts and the rest would be squeaking buy on the remaining 20%.
Think tanks are looking at how best to implement it. It would need worldwide economic collapse before anyone really tried to implement the plan.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178886)
Date: August 22, 2004 12:06 PM
Author: wayne martin
Subject: Finster
As you can tell, I no elitist who sits around and theorizes but prefer to deal with reality. The reality is, that is where we are headed. That is the big battle now for supremacy. What kind of world government will transpire? Capitalist, or Communist, or a hybrid somewhere in between.
What makes it possible IMHO is the total control factor.
It is coming, but for it to work and for the good of all, we need to get back to developing an honesty to truth, for every one of us. And demand that same honesty to truth from everyone else.
It would be a simple matter to implement. Too many want to be the ones controlling how much a core value of anything is worth. These are the power hungry and they should NEVER be put in power. Imagine Kerry deleting Cheney's history in spite? Could happen if the wrong ones gain power.
BTW Bill Klinton's desire after gaining presidency status was to want to be head of the OWG, or NWO, for life.
You are assigned a number such as your social security # at birth. Each person has a minimum wage, or survival cost for necessities funds deposited by the gov't into that fund every month. If you don't work, you do not receive anything else unless it is a medical expense prescribed by doctors fund that deposits a fixed sum for your ailment(s). Collect a pay check, it goes into the fund. Buy something and it comes out of your account. Sell something at a profit, Gov't knows, because you bought it out of that account. Your history shows your true net worth every moment. Every paycheck, every investment, every gift, every profit/loss is immediately known. Tax could be deducted at time of purchase, either sales tax, or value added tax (same thing). If frugal, you can watch the account grow and your purchasing power along with it. Waste it and you get nada before next check. Frugal can be learned rather quickly. Illegal sales of drugs etc would have to be exchanged in a totally different manner to be untraceable, but you would have to exchange work, or barter it out. Not something most druggies favor.
I doubt it would require our whole GDP to fund it, but if it did, we'd at least get a fixed share of it and more equal to today's system.
Just a demand for truth by everyone, from everyone. You won't just have the producers of the world supporting all the parasites now lined up drawing huge salaries and producing nothing of real value to the economy. Folks like our congressmen and senators and every other politician worldwide.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178880)
Date: August 22, 2004 12:45 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Wayne
Wayne, I know from reading many of your posts you are a sensible guy. Finster, on the other hand, is sometimes prone to hysterics - but means no harm.
There does seem to have been some movement in the world government direction. It would take volumes to lay out the full case, so suffice it to say here that I think we will not get there in our lifetimes, nor even in our children or grandchildren's lifetimes. We've been through an extended secular period of relative world peace (it may seem turbulent, but compare with the rest of history), so it may seem plausible at this juncture. But it won't have legs. There is simply too much disagreement and conflict between the interests of the nations of the world. Before long, it will be revealed to have been little more than a utopian's pipe dream.
Of course, that's an entirely separate question from the desirability of such a dream. But here again, it would be tragic. If history tells us anything, it is that the more centralized the government, the more centralized the economic planning, the less freedom and prosperity there is. Command-and-control economics, wherever it has been tried, has been an abject failure.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178898)
Date: August 22, 2004 04:03 PM
Author: tbo
Subject: Someone agrees with F
Can the Real Estate Boom Continue? by Clif Droke
http://www.safehaven.com/article-1882.htm --------
on the other world currency topic, it will take an alien invasion or something to unite this world in anything.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178979)
Date: August 22, 2004 04:07 PM
Author:
beelzebub
Subject: Really now!!!!
It was a common expression to state unequivocally that really Paris, New York, London, Moscow, Tokyo jus to name a few had more in "common" with each other say than New York and Little Rock, Arkansas or Kansas City, Kansas. Now why would the decision makers on THE global currency bother to first check [Paris,France as an example with Dijon France] or Washington DC bother to check and get approval first with either Philadelphia, Denver, Birmingham or Phoenix before agreeing with Tokyo. Really now should we not get real? Our currency is becoming valueless because our policies/monetary decisions are making valueless vis a vis other currencies, metals et al.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=178980)
Date: August 22, 2004 07:53 PM
Author: Kirk
Those who hold dollars hold OIL. The repercussions are too obvious to go into in great detail.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179037)
Date: August 22, 2004 09:41 PM
Author: len
Subject: The intersection between the Believers and non
Believers Is
Here > so no 1 World Gov >
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179061)
Date: August 23, 2004 12:53 AM
Author: wayne
martin
Subject: Finster
There are many of tht opinion and so long as they aren't in crisis they will fight for their favorite position and power.
I can justify my position. World wide, computerized, on line banking has been available for some time. Yet I think only about 15% of banks clientele use it. Still the system is up and running. Welfare in this country is now processed in exactly the way I describe. The recipient is issued a debit card by their bank. Welfare dept each month credits that account, recharging the card, much as many recharge their cell phone account card. Same principle. It is up and running and efficient. You have on line access to your account 24/7 Actually I believe the cashless concept will win out over a world wide currency
Banks are promoting the cashless way of banking. It is having limited success because many banks charged extra for something that saved them money and was convenient for the customer as well.
If banks really forced the issue, they could require you to bank online, or bank elsewhere. It would be applied to commercial accounts and personal accounts could move to the smaller private banks. Bank of America refused new personal accounts, seeking only large accounts back during the late nineties when money was tight. I don't see a failure to repeat the same tactic next big time recession.
Us old farts would fight on line banking simply out of our privacy issues. Younger folks couldn't care less. Hell they discuss every intimate detail of their life with friend and foe alike. Look at Oprah, and all the other type shows on natl. TV. Our generation was reluctant to talk to our doctors about such things.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179104)
Date: August 23, 2004 10:41 AM
Author: wayne
martin
Subject: Finster
It doesn't take too long to get to understand the people posting and what motivates their thinking, or lack thereof.
I agree, the more centralized thing get the worse it becomes for the average citizen. One world government is a concept that as I understand it came to fore around the 15th century in Europe. It has its followers. Just as Communism has failed, so too does large multi continent nations fail. It eventually becomes too expensive to try and shepherd the masses.
The fact that previous attempts have all eventually collapsed, doesn't deter those determined to become the geatest dictator of the world. The control factor being so much easier adds to those beliefs. As is Communism, the fact that it failed everywhere won't deter those with the greed and power to attempt to pull it off.
A cashless society can come about without there ever being a grab for global domination. People have a way of figuring a way to continue in commerce despite the many attempts to thwart it. People do not NEED banks to survive or to conduct commerce. Banks OTOH try to make us believe we cannot operate without them and attempt to punish clients for their own greed, when they have to pay for reaching beyond their means. IE the S&L fiasco of the 80's.
Banks can become quite profitable with the 3% spread in the cost of money. Yet there are times when they aren't satisfied and greed drives them to overreach by charging transaction fees, excessive NSF fees etc. Hell, for the bank it is merely a computer stroke for which they now charge $30. $36 for a box of checks, $5. fee to open an account and another $5 to close it. Late charges etc. etc. For that reason I have little sympathy for them when they get their tit caught in the wringer.
I made good money when the banks got all loosey-goosey but dropped them like a hot potato when they tried tightening the strings. Them I became my own bank, negotiated and financed my own deals, did my own credit assessment and drew up my own contracts.
Whether it is big centralized corporations, big centralized banking, or big centralized government, given time, they all tend to excesses in their grab for power over those responsible for their growth. They lack a sense of appreciation which in time costs them big time.
But hey, we can't all live in Smallville and we can't all be wrong. There are those who believe we are never right and thus life goes on. I hope the world never sees a time when a one world government rises to power. Not many are capable of handling power successfully. They all have big ego's and big egos don't relate to others very well.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179199)
Date: August 22, 2004 09:37 PM
Author: len
Subject: perhaps a reality BUT>
Horrifying>
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179060)
Date: August 23, 2004 12:28 AM
Author: Commandante Pachuco
Wake up gringos...America (the real estate) has been sold to the Asians many years ago by your El Presidenté Nixon when he closed the Gold window...you are behind in your rent...and they are now coming to collect....hahaha
"Hey Chico....hahaha....pass me the Chop Suey Taco"
Everyone talking about where to invest...nobody talking about how to throw them out.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179094)
Date: August 23, 2004 01:00 AM
Author: wayne martin
Subject: Oh Commandante
It is not POLITE to throw them out. We go to war but we can't inflict pain. Only the enemy can do that. The enemy can behead our people but the spineless whimps sit quietly by. We put a pair of undies and leash on our prisoners and we are unmercifully cruel.
Those who think they will receive their reward in heaven may find it is only a bale of hay for being such jackasses.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179108)
Date: August 23, 2004 03:20 AM
Author: Lucius Foster
Subject: Maybe just get rich and to hell with it all.
It has been a difficult two hours staring at this 17 inch flat screen full of screams and yells.
Lets just stop and all get wealthy. How very simple.
In Los Angeles alone there is a need for 25,000 houses for those who cannot afford housing. In San Diego there is a need for 9,000 houses and I could go on all night.
How to get rich. Just supply the housing for these people and in the process utilize a method in which by so supplying you also handle the financing land gathering the whole thing. You become a hero. Maybe you will get a Medal, you sure as hell will be rich. How to do it very simple.
Just tell me how many of you would like to do it. A good act for those who are poor and a good act for your heirs and most of all for yourself. Simple straight forward. Post on this posting and lets see how many want to do a dumb think like get rich and do a good deed for the American lower working classes. I will then write it all out lots of misspelled words oh god do I need spell check. But it is simple, all the elements are there and the time is ripe. Besides it is fun.
Cheers Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179152)
Date: August 23, 2004 08:31 AM
Author: b patton
Hi Lucius - there are no philanthropist on this board - don't even bother to suggest such a thing.
You of all people should remember that the rich get rich and the poor stay poor. Money begets money, therefore how can the poor ever get rich? I would love to be rich but I know I shall always remain poor.
No dear Lucius I do not wallow in self pity but recognize the inevitable. Whilst I continue to hoard my wealth in knowledge I find chasing the almighty dollar a fruitless and uselss exercise.
Repitition confirms and strengthens - so I will say it again - "A shroud has no pocket nor a casket a drawer" so much for hoarding ones wealth.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179175)
Date: August 23, 2004 12:02 PM
Author: wayne martin
Subject: bpatton
There is no reason that the poor need stay poor, except they never disciplined themselves to save, or because they get caught up in the credit trap.
Have you considered why a shroud has no pockets? Why do we not see more shrouds as contemporary clothing? Must be most have a need for pockets and most are not all that poor.
Im not trying to be a smart ass, but the poor are poor simply for buying into that lie that money is evil and anyone attempting to accumulate it is doing the devils work.
Tain't so! Money isn't evil. Lack of it is more evil than the accumulation of it. Buying into these type cliches may give some degree of comfort for those lacking in ambition, but too often it boils down to a lack of patience. I want it and I want it now! The poor often have held good paying jobs at one time, They simply spent most of it on passing fancies and fad type purchases that were soon out of production and out of style. Buying $300 Nikes for an 8 year old doesn't make sense regardless of income. More poor folks wear nikes than do the wealthy.
While knowledge is good, of what purpose does it serve if you hoard it? You are still alive and functioning. What is wrong with putting your knowledge into some fruitful effort that you have a real passion for. Hoarding serves as much purpose as tits on a man. They may be there "just in case" he ever got pregnant but otherwise they serve no useful purpose whatsoever. Hoarding food "just in case" only to see it spoil, serves no useful purpose. Hoarding money "just in case" will find it worthless at some point in time.
I find nothing about poverty for anyone to feel smug about. Everyone comes equipped with certain talents. One may be a baker and his brother a musician. Both may end up wealthy, or poor, depending which price they are willing to pay. You must pay up front in order to accumulate any degree of success. Those who pay the price for success usually achieve success. Those unwilling to pay up front, who squander their resources, who allow others to dictate their behavior and actions, who allow others control their thoughts and thought processes, who take the easy way out, who drop out of the education process, who fail to educate themselves in the ways of the world, pay the far higher price.
Those still alive, have needs for drawers and none whatsoever for a casket. Those still alive have no need for a shroud except to cloak in mystery.
I find most folks wrapping themselves in religious cliches dealing with death, for the most part are allready dead. If God hasn't allready called, he probably has more for you to do. Forget about drawers and pockets and put that knowledge you've been hoarding "just in case" to use else it too becomes spoiled and worthless and serves no purpose whatsoever. Find what you can do to help your daughter and your grandchildren. You are only dead when you quit living.
When you are doing all you can, you won't have time for the forum and debating. Think about it!
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179223)
Date: August 23, 2004 12:14 PM
Author: anthony
Subject: Re: Maybe just get rich and to hell with it all.
Just tell me how many of you would like to do it.
Count me in. I've been eyeing some property where I live, but the numbers don't work out when putting the paper together conventionally through commercial loans and using conventional construction/remodeling techniques. You and I both see the huge pent-up demand for working class housing created by a construction market that tends to cater to a minimum $100K on up clientele. And $100K buys you a home that will barely last the 30 year mortgage. I was going to wait for the next real estate bust to enter the market. But your posts have led me in an interesting direction, and started me thinking on how to write my own paper, something I didn't think was possible before (thought you needed to get chartered first, but some preliminary research tells me this is not the case).
And your posts read just fine. You don't need a spellchecker. That's used for paper you put in front of folks you want to impress. If we can't figure out what you meant when you mistyped something, we're not gonna make it out in the market where the signals are much more garbled.
Email me at maildrop001@yahoo.com if you want to contact me privately.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179229)
Date: August 23, 2004 12:53 PM
Author: bart
Subject: Ok
Post away and I'll punt from there... nothing like the potential of a cheap thrill that includes fun and that funny green paper.
bart
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=179254)