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Date: July 14, 2004 09:07 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: American Immigration Attitudes
In today's Daily Reckoning:
This attitude is not so strange. Yes, Americans are all descendants of immigrants. But Americans are hardly unique in this respect. After all, all humans are believed to have originated somewhere in Africa, the Middle East or Mediterranean region. Every other land on Earth is filled with the descendants of immigrants.
When America invited in the world's "hungry, tired and poor", it was an underpopulated expanse of land, filled with far more open space and natural resources than the contemporary inhabitants could possibly make good use of. That is no longer true. Today's Americans drive on crowded roads and highways, cannot provide their own energy needs, and suffer ever increasing regulation from attempts to preserve what clean air, water and open spaces are left. Liberty is gradually being eroded as increasing proximity to others prompts increasing regimentation and government-enforced socialization.
Americans do not need mass immigrations to sustain retirements. Their retirement programs were created at a time when they did not live nearly as long as they do now, but very little adjustment has been made for this change. Retirement programs could remain quite sustainable if the age of eligibility were adjusted in proportion to longer life spans. Arguments that immigration is necessary to sustain them are thinly veiled cover for the politicians to sell out to special interest and disregard the will of the people. Those that make those arguments never discuss what happens when the current crop of immigrants themselves are old - but it is clear that American would merely be incurring yet another form of unsustainable increase in debt, merely deferring real solutions to be the burden of the next generation.
If American were losing population, increased immigration could be justified. But it's not, and it can't.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164693)
Date: July 14, 2004 09:44 PM
Author: Chicagobear
Subject: Racial aspect
I think the racial aspect needs to be put on the table. Prior to 1965, the vast majority of immigrants were white Europeans who assimilated quickly into the existing American population without changing it. Recent immigrants have been overwhelmingly non-white (Oriental, East Indian, Latin American mestizos and mulattos) and are changing the complexion of America. Whites feel threatened by their loss of power, especially in places like California, and are voting with their feet to places where whites are still a great majority. I think that hostility to immigrants will increase as whites' relative position continues to decline.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164707)
Date: July 14, 2004 09:58 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Cultural Aspect
I think for most folks, it's a matter of culture. Many Americans feel their culture under attack, that multiculturalism is being shoved down their throats. We used to be able to talk to everyone around us about the movies, sports, historical figures, or favorite music, but with linguistic fragmentation, it's getting so that we may not even be able to talk to each other at all. Traditions of democracy and liberty may not be shared by our new arrivals. We can't have a Christmas party at our offices or schools, say the Pledge of Allegiance, or freely name our sports teams. Important symbols of American culture are being driven out of sight.
The French can have a French culture, the Japanese can have a Japanese culture, but Americans can't have an American culture? Ironically, if multiculturalism is taken to its logical conclusion, all countries will be multicultural, the world will be homogeneous, and there will be no real diversity left.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164710)
Date: July 18, 2004 05:37 PM
Author: Vangel Vesovski
Subject: Linguistic Fragmentation???
It seems to me that your language is being attacked from within. Most of the crimes against the vocabulary of daily speech are committed by native born Americans, not immigrants.
And I would not worry too much about not having an American culture. Your movies and music are still dominant across the globe and Americans have more influence in the cultural affairs of other nations than other nations have on you.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166188)
Date: July 22, 2004 08:14 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Well Taken
No question the language is under "assault" even from native speakers. Sometimes it seems mere luck that most of us can so far can still understand things written two hundred years ago.
The problem I'm talking about, though, is a couple of orders of magnitude beyond that. Have you traveled in the US much lately? We're increasingly finding entire communities in which little or no English is spoken and with a critical mass such that even second generation people are not learning. These communities not only will have a tough time getting along with English speaking ones, but with each other, because they do not speak each other's language either. Gangs and mafias are an increasingly serious problem. Governments and firms are having to communicate in multiple languages, an obvious expense that falls not just on the new arrivals, but English speakers as well, and many people are dismayed the first time they go to an ATM and find they have to tell it they speak English. We simply have more costs, inconvenience, and even violence as a result of overwhelming immigration. And this is just the culture and language component; leaving aside the question of the burden of sheer numbers on resources, infrastructure and social programs. A more moderate rate would be a great help in ameliorating these problems.
You raise an interesting point about global American cultural dominance. It seems that while American culture grows in global dominance, it's being lost at home - where as American culture fans out, it is under attack within. Maybe there is an inevitable diffusion effect, and that the end game is a single global culture. One where there is no French culture, Japanese culture, etc, just one, or no culture at all. But why rush it? What a dull world that would be! How ironic it is that if taken to it's logical conclusion, the multiculturalist agenda would give us a monocultural world!
And something that we of libertarian bent ought to be gravely concerned about – a monocultural world might well become monogovernmental as well. One world government. I don't know about you Vangel, but the very thought of having a single inescapable government is more than a little disturbing.
Yet even these cultural and linguistic issues are secondary. Of course, other immigration-limit advocates in this forum may not agree, but I see the cultural and linguistic problems as more recoverable ones than that of population. Which is why I believe that the US should allow in one immigrant for each emigrant – it would keep the population effect in balance. Alternatively, the level of immigration could be adjusted based on population growth or lack thereof, to stabilize population at about its current size.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=167651)
Date: July 22, 2004 11:49 PM
Author: Vangel
Vesovski
Again we have different views. From what I have been reading the rate of assimilation process is faster now than ever before. This is made possible by the availability of mass media and the effects of peers who have as much influence on children as their parents.
As for government having to communicate in more languages, I think that is a problem caused by liberalism. Your country would be much better off if it stopped meddling in people's lives and stopped dipping into the pockets of the productive class in order to fund programs that are used by others.
And I have had enough arguments about saving culture. In English Canada we hear all about a Canadian culture that really does not exist and never existed. Many confuse the lingering effect of the UK and Europe as authentic Canadian culture when it is nothing of the kind. It is time that we all stopped whining about culture and lived our lives as we see fit.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=167715)
Date: July 23, 2004 12:27 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Different Views
You can say that again. Your view is that our path towards Babel is caused by "liberalism". My view is that we have multiple languages because too many people are coming into the country too fast. My view is common sense.
As for culture, the simple fact is that most Americans want limits on immigration. Although my concern is principally with population density and the attendant loss of natural wealth and liberty, most people want those limits for cultural reasons. In fact, most people in most countries like their cultures the way they are, and we Americans are no different. The Japanese like their culture the way it is, so do the French, and so do most of us.
What's missing here is any reasonable basis for importing millions more people into the United States every year. Has someone made a case that the US needs more people? Has someone shown that our culture is a problem to be remedied? Who is whining about these ostensible problems?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=167870)
Date: July 14, 2004 10:37 PM
Author: Eddie
Subject: Cultural Aspect
You are right about the cultural aspect Finster. These immigrants don't want to be Americans. They don't want to learn English. I think they would be welcomed if the numbers were more controlled and sustainable. They would also be welcomed if they loved this country and wanted to assimilate like our ancestors did.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164715)
Date: July 14, 2004 11:46 PM
Author: feelingolder
Subject: assimilation
They would also be welcomed if they loved this country and wanted to assimilate like our ancestors did.
My (Mexican) American grandparents loved this country and never "assimilated". They never learned English. Their seven daughters and one son spoke both English and Spanish. My grandparents lived all their time in the states in a Hispanic barrio where they never had to assimilate.
They lost there only son on a beach on D-day.
Their story is an anecdote but my guess is there are plenty of similar or maybe a majority of similar stories.
I tell you this not to attack your post or make you wrong, but ask you to consider that many, many immigrants came to America, never assimilated, loved this country, were grateful that America even existed, and our country is better for them.
Personally, it is my observation that it is the second generation is the one that does the assimilating. Respectfully.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164742)
Date: July 15, 2004 06:58 AM
Author: Finster
Subject: Assimilation
I think you're right about assimilation being mostly a second generation project. At the macro level, that's why assimilation can happen as long as the rate of immigration isn't too fast. At the overwhelming rate of recent years, though, there's been so much that you get fragmentation instead. Instead of a metling pot, you get isolated enclaves of immigrant communities where children may have little outside contact and even the second generation may not assimilate. Eventually, this may extend to entire cities and states, and the nation itself may break up.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164794)
Date: August 05, 2004 02:29 PM
Author: Dan Browne
Subject: I agree and disagree
My wife's family comes from one of those towns along the Mexican border where mainly Spanish is spoken rather than English. What I can tell you is this: The people sure as hell ARE proud to be American even if they do speak Spanish. The ones who can speak English are proud to show it off even if it sucks.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=172828)
Date: July 14, 2004 11:11 PM
Author: The Reaper !
Subject: Immigration & The Rich !
Funny thing about all of this immigration , the rich have been petitioning congress to let more and more of them in . This year another million plus legal immigrants will enter this country , in spite of the fact that we are presently , according to the government , 10,000,000 jobs short of employing the people that are all ready here . IMHO the real figure is well over 20,000,000 , but hey ! what's in a number ? All that matters , at least to those rich petitioners , is that them immigrants keep coming and those wages keep falling ! Let's see , we kicked most of the people off of welfare and then told them to take all those low paying jobs . Then just when they got used to getting up in the morning and going to work , we sent all those jobs to Mexico . Then when the Mexicans got used to working for $100 a week , we sent those same jobs to China . Then we sent all the computer related jobs to India . Got any thoughts on who runs the U.S. ? Oh those fickle rich ! The Reaper !
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164729)
Date: July 15, 2004 09:31 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Politicians
It doesn't seem to matter which party you have. As the DR article pointed out, the Republicans want immigration because their big business constituents want cheap labor. The Democrats big labor constituents want union members and big victimhood constituents want victims. They're both willing to sell out American citizens for what they think will give them that slight marginal edge. Funny, but they can't both be right. Meanwhile, who is representing us average joes?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165066)
Date: July 15, 2004 12:03 AM
Author: Dan Osborne
Subject: National interest verses elite interest
A simple and dramatic lesson was and is the use of slave labor to boot start the USA. The use of slave labor made it possible to have big plantations and vast wealth for a few white "elites". Of course they knew it was wrong. If insted they used non slave labor the economic growth and wealth growth would have been slower but today we would have been much better off. One thing I notice about many people they don't plan ahead, the christan religion is almost built for this as the coming end times seems to be just around the corner, all the time.. I point out to the few christans I know that this is not new, this social economic situation. The Roman empire is a example. We are just going back in time before the new deal in social political terms. "Back to the old days" I am not tied into the think tanks but they must have done research and crunched the numbers and decided we need more and more people. Just like we need more and more money and more and more economic growth. Never mind history is full of ancient societies that rose up and overconsumed their enviroment and callapsed to a dust bowl.
The secret services of the world must know that all is geared toward the elite's interest, all things twisted this way. I mean in terms of thinking and reasoning of their lackies. A few leftys or true centralists are a small voice against this.
I am guessing the elites have decided in the very long term they will turn the USA to a south american type of country. It will be unpleasent and there will be movements in time to break away into smaller countries. I do think though there are too many people too stupid to wake up the danger and we will just slowly desolve to a shit hole. In time whites will be looking to get out of the USA or make a new country. A very fertle ground for fascism with these dynamics. A intelligent management would try to keep a population at around 90% homogenious for stablity of government ie republic, even alternative democracy designs. I do realise though this current generation of kids are physically lazy. Part of the problem is that they simply know too much, they can't see themselves working for peanuts while someone else is a billionare.
As hard as it is, population demographics must have some form of central planning, if you want stablity in government, society.
Personally, my vision is this for the futuure. A stable population for the USA or country X. In other words a fixed population number, I say around 250 million in the USA. A more democratic process in government. A better stable currency, focus on the design of it's control. My vision tends to lean toward a idealistic european country, farms, small factories, no huge cities. Some socialistic programs but as the people want, by choice of the vote.
The alternative, is over expansion, over consumption, over population, more and more growth in all things. Until the big belly up!!
Understand, nothing can beat a pure capitalism for production and profits, but now as always in history it cannot be sustained. The whole social economic governmental design is bent on self destruction. You can't beat pure capitalism at it's own game no matter how you go about it, it is a dead end, literly.
As a practical matter if a country or two etc, went to a better social economic model and if it worked then this would go a long way to stablise the world. It won't be a quick fix but in the coming 100 years and onward it may help save the human race from self destruction. It should would beat twiddling the thumbs and just letting things take care of themselves.
If a elite or elites etc could slip a few bucks my way, I would do some traveling and try to see if anything that I could do. That is the best I can try.
Dan
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164749)
Date: July 15, 2004 01:14 AM
Author: James Hyland
Subject: Sure I'm repeating myself yet again . . .
. . . but sometimes you can't improve on what has been said in the past:
" . . . the northern European, and particularly Anglo Saxons made this country. Oh yes, the others helped. But that is the full statement of the case. They came to this country because it was already made as an Anglo-Saxon commonwealth. They added to it, they often enriched it, but they did not make it . . ."
This was a simple statement of fact in 1924, and despite 39 years of immigration idiocy since the 1965 Immigration Reform Act, it remains as true today as it was 80 years ago. Remodelling ethnic America is at best a dangerous experiment.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164755)
Date: July 16, 2004 12:45 AM
Author: Bud Wood
Subject: Immigrants vs settlers
There was an interesting comparison between immigrants and settlers. Seems that immigrants come to a country to live- not necessarily to assimilate. Settlers, on the other hand, are more interested in building community.
Perhaps a fine difference, but seems that most of those who came to the country a century or so ago were settlers. Now, most are immigrants who still embrace their original homelands. From such a definition, one can conclude that we are not a nation of immigrants but of settlers. But the nation is changing to one of immigrants with a multitude of cultures as differentiated from a single nation.
Not saying this is good or bad. Just that the current situation is different from what we'd like to believe. What is bad is that the politicians pander to the separate groups for their own political advantage and generate the power that politicians seem to inherently need.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165109)
Date: August 05, 2004 02:31 PM
Author: Dan Browne
Subject: James, sorry
It wasn't even true in 1924. Using your term "Anglo-saxon" does not include Irish or Italians who were by far the two biggest immigrant groups at the time you mentioned.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=172829)
Date: July 15, 2004 06:40 AM
Author: Eleuthero
Subject: Jet Travel, Telecommunication, and Assimilation.
When immigrants came to America in 1950 and before, jet travel for common people did not exist. This more or less forced people to fully assimilate to the Anglo-Saxon culture because a return trip to their homeland would be as perilous and uncertain as the trip here.
Now, with jet travel, lots of Indians and Asians live in America but always have their big toe still in their homeland -- where they can talk to their kin still living there daily due to the ease of international telecommunication.
I teach classes which are 80% foreign -- a mix of Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Russians. Alas, I see only balkanization and virtually no desire to assimilate except to buy all the goodies that Honkies want like expensive cars, cellphones, computers, and big screen TVs.
Perhaps the second generation USED TO BE the generation when the real assimilation occurred but I suspect you could see the inklings of adjustment in the first generation. I see no "inklings".
I see immigrants coming here to "sweep the gold off the streets" and while I decry the consummate materialism of many of my yuppie peers, the foreigners appear to have virtually no other motivations for being here. The Nasdaq Bubble brought 'em here and I would just as soon see about 75% of them go back.
In the SF Bay Area, you often see packs of Anglos with a few people from other cultures mixed in. The packs of Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, and even Russians are "pure" and seldom, if ever, have a token "whitey". You here them going to and fro up and down the streets speaking their native tongue. It's like living in the United Nations.
Not only is there little cultural mixing but many of these cultures, especially the Indians and Chinese, bring their poor sanitation habits with them as well. Ask people in City Halls about restaurants which routinely violate local health ordinances.
I don't mind sharing a piece of the economic pie with any decent folk. However, I wouldn't go to their country to form a semi-hostile enclave and I sure as hell don't like them doing it here.
E.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164787)
Date: July 15, 2004 07:07 AM
Author: Finster
Subject: Sharing The Economic Pie
Surely it is possible (and being done) to share the economic pie with other people in their native lands. The DR article also made the point that Mexicans, for example, would be less incentivized to cross borders with better economic policies in Mexico. If people want better economic opportunity, they should develop it where they live. Crowding all those who seek economic betterment into the United States will only reduce the incentive for economic betterment in other countries. Packing them all into here will only ensure that there soon will be no gold dust to sweep.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164795)
Date: July 15, 2004 08:31 AM
Author: Mark Grant
"If people want better economic opportunity, they should develop it where they live."
So how, as an individual, do I develop better economic policies here in the UK?
The sad fact is that, at least in a democracy, it's much easier to move elsewhere than to fix problems where you live.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164811)
Date: July 15, 2004 03:49 PM
Author: James Hyland
Subject: Turn to 'Crime'
"So how, as an individual, do I develop better economic policies here in the UK?"
There is no white market, black market or grey market, there is only THE MARKET, with your own participation constrained by your own ethics.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164972)
Date: July 15, 2004 01:04 PM
Author: The Reaper !
Subject: Finster & Da Pie
Finster , you wrote , ..."If people want better economic opportunity, they should develop it where they live."........Well ! ....You got that one right ! ....I say , let every country evolve , on their own , at their own speed . On a personal level , I have no problem with countries getting rich , as long as they are NOT doing it at my expense , or the expense of the American Worker . It took us over 500 years to get where we are , why all of a sudden are the working stiffs in this country , supposed to give their jobs to some one in some God forsaken former Communist country ? What's that about ? All across this country the middle class is rapidly becoming the new working poor , WHY ? What's it all about Allfie , is it just for some cheap Chinese junk that we live ? The Reaper !
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164917)
Date: July 15, 2004 09:33 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Reaper & Getting It Right!
Well, I have to get it right once in a while!
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165067)
Date: July 16, 2004 04:05 AM
Author: Eleuthero
Subject: I couldn't agree more!!
Instead of trying to "nation build" in foreign lands via invasion, I'd much rather have our ambassadors and envoys read a helluva lot of countries the riot act about their idiotic economic systems -- replete with corruption from the police dept. all the way to the premier's office.
As "some dude" said on another thread, bribery is a way of life in China and, I trust, Mexico, India, and a great many other shitholes as well. Inevitably, it's the peasants who have to bribe petty officials and I would surmise that it goes right up the chain.
We might think Dick Grasso, Enron, and many other people and events make this a totally decayed power but they should spend one night in a Mexican jail because they couldn't come up with enough bribe money to keep a sleazy Mexican cop from confiscating your vehicle on NO CRIME AT ALL.
You're absolutely right, Finster. These third world latrines don't give their citizens any incentive not to flee.
E.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165140)
Date: July 15, 2004 09:08 AM
Author: Commandanté Pachuco
Señor Eleuthero....last time I checked with my brother Chico, he is so funny, the Russian you speak of is "white". Unless you speak of the Jew who speaks Russian, who is another race. But that is another story.
Hahaha...packs of Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese and even Russians are "pure", and seldom, if ever, have a token 'whitey'." Very stupid remark for such a "blue blood" to make...Hahaha...."Pure"
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164819)
Date: July 15, 2004 10:18 AM
Author: Some dude
Buddy... please be honest. Tell us your story. If I were a betting man, I would bet you're some ivy league kid with comedy aspirations. You're pretty funny. But it's a white ivy league sort of humor.
Is you a kracka mothaf***a?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164839)
Date: July 18, 2004 03:21 PM
Author: Commandanté
Pachuco
It's a white ivy league sort of humor.
Si...hahaha...I am taking correspondence course. How did you know?...you are a smart gringo.
My brother Chico...he say there is always a smart papaya in the gringo bunch...Hahaha
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166131)
Date: July 16, 2004 04:16 AM
Author: Eleuthero
Subject: Me, a "blue blood"??? Boy are you a live one.
Yeah. We all know that the sons of construction workers are spoiled "blue bloods". True, Russians are white but they have the same kind of mafia now as Italians so maybe they are getting more "brown".
You know, BROWN LIKE YOU, Commandante'? Even though I'm only a little Right of Center, guys like you and your "bros" from Absurdistan could turn guys like me into a Fascist if it meant bitch-slapping you right out of the U.S. of A..
You and your bloods come here to buy the inventions of the Great Honkie -- inventor of all goods that Commandantes from Upper Revolta come here to buy.
So I made a slip by including Russians as non-whiteys. Big deal. Did it invalidate my point? No. Tell Chico to come here and mop the floors for me, will you?
E.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165141)
Date: July 18, 2004 03:14 PM
Author: Commandanté
Pachuco
So I made a slip by including Russians as 'non-whiteys'. Big deal.
Si Señor...it is!... a big deal. It proves you don't know what you are talking about.
Tell Chico to come here and mop the floors for me, will you?
Hahaha.....Si Señor...very soon...he is very much busy today...maybe tomorrow? Hahaha....he is a good mopper...works very long...anything else Señor?...maybe cut the grass?...Hahaha
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166129)
Date: July 15, 2004 03:44 PM
Author: James Hyland
Subject: Assimiliation
Assimiliation is almost entirely a matter of genetic distance. [URL]http://www.friesian.com/images/languag1.gif[/URL]
America was fooled into thinking that assimiliation could work for all because groups that don't even bear separation on this chart (Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Slavs) had little difficulty assimilating in the century before 1965.
The evidence that the farther out the tree of genetic distance you go the less assimiliation, was always there: black Americans, despite being genetically 22% white and despite speaking nominal English, have never assimilated because the 'black 78%' is at the greatest genetic distance.
Now that the evidence is all around us, with even Caucasian groups like South Asians and West Asians showing little assimiliability, our weak-kneed ruling class has decided that assimiliation is evil anyway, and we are to have 'multiculturalism.'
Eleuthero, don't make the classic liberal mistake: I don't mind sharing a piece of the economic pie with any decent individual; I don't need to share with his folk at all, however, and it is moral to keep them out.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164971)
Date: July 19, 2004 04:52 AM
Author: Eleuthero
Subject: Oh, don't worry James. I won't make that mistake.
When I speak of "sharing the pie" with any decent Joe, I'm referring to REALLY decent Joes i.e., ones who adapt to MY culture just as I'd be expected to kowtow to theirs if I were in it. How many Asians/Indians come here now and become REAL Americans and mix, socially, with us Honkies. Virtually none.
Also, James, I'm not a Liberal. I just hate George Bush. Bush is perhaps the greatest Conservative fraud in modern Presidential history -- especially fiscally. He has vetoed NO spending bill. He has slapped tariffs on many foreign goods. What kind of Conservative is this??
But to return to your original point -- in no way do I want to "share the pie" with people who come here to live in cultural ghettos and keep all their shit traditions. That sound "Liberal" to you? :-)
E.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166303)
Date: July 19, 2004 08:20 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: What Would They Think
What do you suppose they would think if you or I went to Japan, or France, insisted they teach our kids in English, kept the oldest vestiges of their cultural traditions out of public view, celebrated our holidays and generally make themselves multicultural...
I, and I think most of us, would if we were to immigrate to Japan or France, do so fully expecting to speak Japanese or French, and generally adapt to their ways of life.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166549)
Date: July 15, 2004 10:43 PM
Author: Lucius Foster
Subject: Imigrants late and early
In spite of my violent protests I have just moved from a very nice slumy place called North Hollywood. I lived there secure in the knowledge that I had bought a house on a land contract and for ten years I played the part of the local translator, elderly adviser to the newly arrived. I taught the gang signs to my neighbors so they could visit the 7/11 at night. I prevented my newly arrived Albanian neighbor from killing the Serbian paper boy. His Greg accent is a caution. I helped the ex member of Shining Light get a job as a security inspector. God knows he was qualified. I protected the Hmong who gathers trash from going to jail when the cops stopped him and I got his kid into the Magnet Program by telling lies that should have won an Oscar. I loved it and viewed it as a true portion of mixed up crazy american lower class life. Cannot tell you how many 1003 forms I filled in as I helped many of them obtain the American dream. A home of their own and super debt that would keep noses to the grindstone and a continuing pattern of refinance and even larger payments. Interesting.
I played baby sitter to the kid from Yemen who fell in love with the daughter of a Guadalmalian drug dealer and wanted to take her away from all her goodies, New Mustang, crazy clothes, big allowance. He did it now they live in a garage. I modified it into a biggy single for one of my investors. Lovely view of the Liquor store and a large building that produces porno films on a wholesale basis. They are truly in love. It fills their present life like a bright light. I hope it lasts.
This is the America of today. It may I hope contribute to its future greatness. I have lived everywhere in the world. If I am sitting on the Champs a small apertif, a copy of the Herald Tribune I hear Parisian Naselized French wining around me. They view us as children. There is no envy, they feel we have missed much. Ah the lovely after taste of a really cheap Cognac. Or the buzzing sensation that accompanies the third Pernod. Now thats civilization. Interesting drink, little Frenchmen shortened by Napoleons ventures have three Pernods and go out and beat up big Fliks with lead weights in their cloaks. Fun to watch.
I lived with Bedoins, what do you want to know about goats. Some of which I must admit were more attractive then the women. I learned to hoard water, put a little cloth over a hole in the sand and in the early dawn find a bit of water to get through the day. Are they envious of us? They cannot imagine a life such as we lead. I liked them. I think they let their little feuds run on too long. Only place in the world where I shoved sand up my nose to cut down the heavy oder of largely unwashed people.
The Orient, I lived there, schooled in a little tiny village school in the middle of nowhere. I enjoyed it, learned the fine art of raising ducks. Now there is a life style.Do they envy us? No, they feel we have no true values and we wander all over the place instead of following the preset path of village life. I enjoyed it.
I have now moved out of the slummy area. I now live in a very middle class place called Sherman Oaks. The people mow their lawns, do not conduct large car repairs on the front lawn. But no parties, no gun shots, screams of laughter or the gunning of car motors until somebodies block flies thru the hood. I miss SpanEnglish. I keep feeling that it has a major place in future communications here on the West Coast.
I think we are a society that is always in the midst of cultural change. Each wave of new arrivals brings, thank god, new foods, new customs and new viewpoints. I do not think these changes will ever cease.
The Hmong brought me a gift for the new place. We sit looking out the window and drink beer. He loves Beck a German Beer. I got it just for him. He looks again out the window, shakes his head and says, "I do not understand, but I see everything. Please do not go any farther away."
I'm stuck here. I am Californian and American and I love all the mixes. I hope you also will come to enjoy it. I will save you a Baloot, delicious!
Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165079)
Date: July 16, 2004 12:39 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Never Cease?
Exactly what makes you think new arrivals could ever continue without ceasing? Let's take a look at US population over the decades, with just some hypothetical figures for the future. Just how far do you think this can go? How far do you think it should go? And what do you think driving from Point A to Point B will be like? How much will a gallon of gasoline cost? How much will a home cost? How much will a loaf of bread or a dozen eggs cost? Where will your city dispose of its garbage?
1800 5,308,483
1850 23,191,876
1900 76,212,168
1950 151,325,798
2000 281,421,906
2050 450,000,000
2100 950,000,000
2150 1,650,000,000
2200 3,150,000,000
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165257)
Date: July 16, 2004 10:24 PM
Author: feelingolder
Subject: Lucius
I was completely entertained by your post. Thank you.
And I want to help clear you up on Spanglish. It has not only a possible major place in future communications in So Cal, but a past place in communications here. Spanglish has been spoken in So Cal and Central California for as long as the Hispanics and Anglos have been mixing it up here.
It is the numero uno language of choice en la familia de mi madre.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165459)
Date: July 25, 2004 07:30 PM
Author: Lucius Foster
Subject: Answer Feelingolder
I like any language that reaches out and captures words then bends and modifys it for a purpose. You see that is the big sign in the sky that says a new language is forming.
Man, cannot begin to tell you the crap I went thru as I dug away up the hill from Vulgate Latin, to Medieval Latin to Legion Latin, then Early English and etc. etc. etc.
I think in our society as practiced in Southern California it is the perfect lingua. It is amusing, funny as hell and truly descriptive.
I am always getting involved in construction and almost all of my workers are Spanish speakers. Well some of them are pretty thick in the Indian Dialects, but to teach them the trades I have to use English, but all the impliments and materials hold their Spanish names.
So when we party at night all of the Rumanians, Lebonese, Albanians, Serbs, Pakistanis etc. etc. we all end up speaking SpanEnglish. Cause thats our hooked language, the one we can all habla in. Oh what crimes are committed when it comes to Grammer but that is the first to go as a language changes and, these changes are evidence of the Life of the Language as it evolves.
Cheers Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=168849)
Date: August 09, 2004 10:39 AM
Author: feelingolder
Subject: Spanglish
I use to have a roommate who was the same half and half combo as myself and we enjoyed speaking a degenerate, barely understandable form of Spanglish.
Ex. - "Donde esta frijole, hombre?"
Translation - "Where you bean, man?"
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=174223)
Date: August 10, 2004 03:25 AM
Author: Ronald
Swaren
Subject: lazy professionals
Consider how many individuals, expecting a professional career, are graduated from colleges and universities every year in the US. Now, some of these, such as nurses and doctors, are highly valuable and deserving of respect. Yet many pursue careers that are questionable and these include some of the most cherished institutions of American society. E.G.,I rent a duplex out, mainly to college students. They have not the faintest clue as to how to repair anything, are rudely noisy at the wee hours of the morn, blithely ignore clearly posted rules, fail to read the contract they sign, drink excessively, play with fire (via candles)and have come on the verge of setting the house on fire. I have even had one fire caused by tenants. Yet they are deemed our future leaders. Good PR, only. When they develop a career they are, usually totally oblivious to the ethical implications of their choice. They want to make as much money as they can, since the professional culture promotes that value. I can speak from experience of having been abusively pressured into bad decisions, such as by realtors eager to make a commission. I have even seen such professionals finally only halted by state action and prosecution. Of course with all the disruption in our society due to money grubbing the lawyers always stand to charge us an arm and a leg along with the attendant "justice system professionals". Manual work, which can reflect consumnate craftsmanship, and used to be called "honest toil", is disdained. So with so many professionals, who could be replaced by a computer or through thoughtful reorganization, who produce nothing of value, our society is deteriorating.. What then has always been the solution in America? Let immigrants in to do the lowly, but honest jobs. But now the professional class, because of the growth of higher education is so bloated that we necessarily resort to wholesale, even illegal, immigration. Those in elite, but IMHO, unethical positions, merely wink at this problem. I think it would be a surprise to many to realize how many professional vocations would be come unnecessary if their was more production of real value in this country.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=174573)
Date: August 05, 2004 02:37 PM
Author: Dan Browne
Subject: Make
bien sure you can mopear the floor after you parquetear your carro, guey.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=172831)
Date: July 15, 2004 01:39 PM
Author: Ronald Swaren
Subject: America in a nosedive
Tolerating excessive and illegal immigration is a certain sign that our society has failed. This is exactly what happened with Rome. I can speak from decades of experience with both the educated elites and the blue collar class. The blue collars don't want any moral advice which interferes with their 'freedom': i.e. the freedom to drink and smoke and otherwise pollute themselves to death and to grub for money to support themselves and their broods.. If they are in trouble their solution is to hog the jobs and push good people out of the way__i.e. getting more money will cure everything. The softie,over-educated elites ("highly educated idiots")accomplish very little towards the betterment of society; they just want to preserve, by enacting appropriate laws and policies, their privileged positions. Combined, these two socio-economic groups would have tanked this country long ago, but they have found a way out by allowing in low paid workers who actually do something and thus keep the industrial wheels turning. This however is changing the whole face of American culture (other countries have wised up long before we have)and good people, however diminished as a percentage of the population, are once again picking up the tab in the form of social services. "My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of -money- grubbing opportunists- liberty"
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=164933)
Date: July 15, 2004 09:44 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Rome
Astute observation, Ronald. Rome was not conquered, it was overrun. It had an extensive welfare state and was shot through with moral rot. High military expenditures combined with an eroding economy helped push it over the edge. Hordes of barbarians crossed in with little resistance, and many Romans believed they could be assimilated and Romanized - early on many of the immigrants even fought in the Roman military. But once their numbers exceeded that certain critical mass, they set out to destroy Roman civilization. Strikingly, Alaric the Barbarian sacked Rome much as Osama bin Laden sacked America on 9-11. Any American observer familiar with this episode in history can hardly help but be alarmed by the parallels.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165068)
Date: July 15, 2004 10:59 PM
Author: kodiak
Ted Kennedy is one of the culprits constantly pushing for more nonwhite immigrants to come into America. One reason is so that it can improve its numbers for the Democrats in elections. How selfish can one be? Also, Vilsack of Iowa is another one pushing for bigger numbers in his agricultural minded state. Opinionwise; if these immigration policies do not change, it will only cause a great divide in America. Perhaps, it will lead to civil strife on a grander scale. I rest my case.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165084)
Date: July 15, 2004 11:07 PM
Author: Lucius Foster
Subject: quote history but dig into it a bit.
Rome expanded like crazy. The Legions were filled with bought men, mostly Gauls who lived in the slums of Rome and whose lives were marginal.
Gracus,Pro Councel and then oops just da boss. Nice people, cornered the grain market and then played games. Very Hollywood attitude. No class, lots of money and power. I mean the hit of Roman humor was this famous comic who could fart on command. A Trilblow, A baby threep, a thundrus blast, etc. etc. When humor reaches that level then look to your terminals.
Rome did not keep up to date. Expand Expand, run the roads to everywhere. Build funny walls to guide commerce where you want it, creating market towns, sub market towns etc. etc. The Legions went weak. Never came home. New generations recruited in from Britain, Gaul, Etc. Now remember when you build the roads and you talk of Rome. Down the roads come all kinds of peoples and they want the good things. Give them Circus, throw them bread, but with a care on the entertainment offered. A large lady makes it with an elephant, really, much too much. Flood the Coliseum and have a navel battle. A Gladiator makes it thru a few years, becomes a hero and then one day slips and the crowds stands there and gives him a thumb down. Their hero has been defeated. What does that tell you. Civilizations fall from their own weight and warp. Sooooooo once more from the back of the chariot Lucius ex Centurian of the 10th a real believer in SPQR points with great drama at the Rods and Ax. Be ware of these times for as ye sow, so shall ye reap. "Old Republican saying"
Cheers Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165090)
Date: July 15, 2004 11:41 PM
Author: Lucius Foster
Subject: quote history but dig into it a bit.
Rome expanded like crazy. The Legions were filled with bought men, mostly Gauls who lived in the slums of Rome and whose lives were marginal.
Gracus,Pro Councel and then oops just da boss. Nice people, cornered the grain market and then played games. Very Hollywood attitude. No class, lots of money and power. I mean the hit of Roman humor was this famous comic who could fart on command. A Trilblow, A baby threep, a thundrus blast, etc. etc. When humor reaches that level then look to your terminals.
Rome did not keep up to date. Expand Expand, run the roads to everywhere. Build funny walls to guide commerce where you want it, creating market towns, sub market towns etc. etc. The Legions went weak. Never came home. New generations recruited in from Britain, Gaul, Etc. Now remember when you build the roads and you talk of Rome. Down the roads come all kinds of peoples and they want the good things. Give them Circus, throw them bread, but with a care on the entertainment offered. A large lady makes it with an elephant, really, much too much. Flood the Coliseum and have a navel battle. A Gladiator makes it thru a few years, becomes a hero and then one day slips and the crowds stands there and gives him a thumb down. Their hero has been defeated. What does that tell you. Civilizations fall from their own weight and warp. Sooooooo once more from the back of the chariot Lucius ex Centurian of the 10th a real believer in SPQR points with great drama at the Rods and Ax. Be ware of these times for as ye sow, so shall ye reap. "Old Republican saying"
Cheers Lucius
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165097)
Date: July 16, 2004 03:50 AM
Author: James Hyland
Subject: Le Petomane
"the hit of Roman humor was this famous comic who could fart on command . A Trilblow, A baby threep, a thundrus blast, etc. etc. When humor reaches that level then look to your terminals."
Lucius, your flatulence indicator of decadence may have merit. Joseph Pujol gave his first performance in Paris in 1892 ('this is a little girl... this is a bride on her wedding night ... this is the bride the morning after ...'). It had been 22 years since Bismarck's conquering troops had marched into town, and it would be 26 more before the last fling of French willingness to defend the homeland, but it seems the writing 'Vichy' was on the walls of the Moulin Rouge that year.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165135)
Date: August 05, 2004 04:10 PM
Author: Norville
Subject: flatulence indicator of decadence moves into the
red.....
www.mrmethane.com
from the site: In the words of American actor Kelsey Grammer, "This man took the history books by the pages and really ripped one out for himself!!!!!".
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=172854)
Date: July 16, 2004 03:33 AM
Author: James Hyland
Subject: Barbarian Future
The longboat, the printing press, the telescope, the microscope, the chronometer, gravity, calculus, the circulation of blood, chemistry, electricity, the atom, natural selection, the neuron, the computer . . . the descendants of Alaric and his kin proved eventually to be the greatest of all, to whom Romans were mere messenger boys. The future may be kind to the descendants of Osama, but in 410, the Visigoths were almost unknown to history, whereas Osama's relatives have been showing us their stuff for six millennia now.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165131)
Date: July 16, 2004 06:50 PM
Author: Ronald Swaren
Subject: And furthermore
I would also like to see some honest statistics on the size of the black market in this country. Taught to be a law abiding citizen, in business, too, (although not perfect) I have become increasingly aware of under the table work and/or businesses. As a union carpenter I have realized that this is vitually an absolute norm, since the demand for their skills is quite universal. This field will shortly be overrun by immigrants, who don't care about tax laws either, but are looking for the shortest path to get ahead, and are supported and condoned by wealthier elites. Despite what they may say, they almost universally disdain "the government," not acknowledging that they have the right of representation. And I have learned that many, many Americans conduct tax tree enterprises on the side, to augment what they consider as a too meager income. All of this is of course "politically correct" Sign me "chumped".
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165361)
Date: July 17, 2004 03:33 AM
Author: Anonymous
Subject: Black and White Markets
Ronald,
You ask a difficult question about the size of the black market. The problem is since the black market is illegal, no one wants to talk about it officially.
Not counting drugs and gambling, everyone I know has some kind of black/grey market scam going on because they can't make it on the white market alone.
Most are pretty honest about their white market taxes, although some that are honest are pretty "agregressive" about their "legitimate" deductions. Probably most of these deductions would partially stand up in tax court.
Many are skimming cash off legimate white market part time businesses/part time jobs (work for unreported cash or unreported tips).
Counting drugs and gambling, there is an enormous black market. My guess is the black market in drugs probably is the biggest chunk of the black market.
Legalized lotto and casino/riverboat gambling has cut into black market gambling somewhat, but even after the lotto every company and bar (and some dental/doctor practices) I every worked/frequented in the white market has had multiple black market office pools running, some in the hundreds of thousands of dollars (run by off duty policemen - no need to pay protection). Figure the pool operator is skimming at least 10% off the top, sometimes more. And it's all cash.
Every company I've ever worked for has had multiple embezzments and bucco inventory shrinkage, especially in raw materials like copper and aluminium. Every home contractor employee I know is recycling scrap for cash and not telling the boss. This isn't even counting disappearing office supplies and personal long distance telephone calls during company time.
Some office guys I know run part-time businesses during company hours while they make "sales calls" or "run for parts/supplies" or are at "training seminars" or "run to for a meeting at (the) corporate/regional/district/branch". Some run personal errands every day during a 2-3 hour "lunch 1/2 hour". I don't know if you want to count personal errands during company time or not.
Then there's the perennial padding of the expense account. Some pad as much as 100% of their white expenses in grey and black expenses. Everybody I've been on a trip with padded their expense by at least 50%. One guy even padded his expenses by 200% and the Director never batted an eye (because he had his 3 mistresses on the payroll).
That's another thing. Somebody in every company I or my girl friend/wife worked for had a mistress or two on the payroll.
Many divorced/single women and college students are part of call girl rings or web porn. The percentage may be as high as 52% of the single moms in some neighborhoods. Maybe 10% of female college students in some colleges are involved someone in the sex/porn trade.
Some are pretty bold about "telecomming" twice a day for 1/2 hour to check e-mail and return phone calls while claiming a 12 hour workday (for comp time).
Heck, I even know a doctor that's running a merchandise refund black market scam with local Walgreens for about $10-20/week (in a slow week) in profit.
So don't shoot me, but if my personal experiences of the last ten years are any indication, I would say that the black market is 20-40% of the white market, and that may be low depending on whether or not you count embezzlement and inventory shrinkage and "falling off the truck". If you count those the black market could be as high as 50% of the white market.
This, by the way, is why the bears are wrong about the consumer spending more than he earns and not saving money. Those numbers are based on white market numbers and are so much horse pucky. Almost everyone I know has stashed cash and pawnable jewelery somewhere in the house, with hundreds being typical for working class, thousands for middle class, and I even heard of millions in unreported cash in a dresser drawer for the truely rich (in this one case in a rich suburb from the handyman who accidently ran across it).
A middle class married woman may stash tens of thousands in pawnable/sellable jewelery if she is contemplating a divorce. Naturally, this cash and jewelery is not reported stolen in burgleries.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165527)
Date: July 19, 2004 10:42 AM
Author: Ronald Swaren
Subject: necessity of black market?
"everyone I know has some black/grey market scam because they can't make it on the white market alone" The fact that I have observed is that "everyone" now seems to feel that their income is too low,and they can't make it in the legitimate market, from the oil change mechanics to the CEO's of major corporations. As a union carpenter what I saw is that there is an inner circle, while not necessarily intelligent and talented or productive who have been able to garner the easiest jobs, the greatest amount of overtime, and then take on 'side jobs'(black market). They are also able to get their bitching about grievances listened, too. I saw the biggest companies routinely doing the most stupid things: it makes you wonder how the whole system keeps performing. And then you have to deal with the next class up, real estate agents, who also believe that their income, which they are not endangering themselves to earn, is still not enough and they have to resort to extraordinary pressure tactics to make more money for themselves. I guess this pattern holds true all the way to the top. So the big CEO's have caused our American currency to plummet 25% in the last two years. Does a person in this country (US) ever make enough to be 100 percent honest and legal? I guess not. I wanted to get out of here over ten years ago, but was waylaid by one of the crooked realtors, as mentioned above. Laws mean litttle, and ethics are a joke.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166355)
Date: July 16, 2004 10:27 PM
Author: feelingolder
Subject: toleration
Some would day that toleration of homosexuality is what caused Rome's failure, but I guess the some who said that would be accused of bigotry.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165461)
Date: July 17, 2004 04:10 AM
Author: The Devil's Gift
Subject: Lead Poisoning
Fellingolder,
Personally I think the downfall of Rome had more to do with the lead plumbing and the lead wine gobblets that the Roman rich used.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165531)
Date: July 17, 2004 01:41 PM
Author: dud
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165718)
Date: July 17, 2004 01:45 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Hedonism
I wouldn't agree that toleration of homsexuality caused Rome's failure. Promotion of something, on the other hand, is not the same as toleration. Latter-day Rome is pretty well known to have suffered a hedonic moral breakdown, and if you look over the broad sweep of history, there is a strong association with between declining civilizations and moral decay. The suceeding or conquering civilizations usually have been morally strict. Pat Buchanan cites numerous examples of this historical phenomena in Death Of The West, noting especially tendencies for exceptionally morally lax societies to suffer declining birthrates and population.
See also James Hyland's post Le Petomane post above, and Lucius Foster's before that.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=165721)
Date: July 18, 2004 09:37 AM
Author: Finster
Subject: Morality And Prosperity
Interesting comment just appeared in Barron's this morning. It seems the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis's just published a report in its The Regional Economist magagine showing that "In countries where large percentages of the population believe in hell, there seem to be less corruption and a higher standard of living.".
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166018)
Date: July 18, 2004 11:19 AM
Author: feelingolder
Subject: other side of the coin
And there are some who say that all morality is relative.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166059)
Date: July 18, 2004 02:26 PM
Author: Finster
Subject: Other Side Of The Coin
If so, by the same token, all prosperity would be relative.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166116)
Date: July 18, 2004 03:06 PM
Author: William C.
Hampton
Consider this: Unanswered questions are always less dangerous than unquestioned answers!
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166126)
Date: July 18, 2004 09:10 PM
Author:
feelingolder
Subject: Relativity
I have never starved, but I'll give you ten to one that a person who is starving will not agree that prosperity is relative.
And the same ten to one that the victim of a violent crime will not think of morality as relative.
Whaddya think?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166236)
Date: August 09, 2004 08:19 AM
Author:
Finster
Subject: Morality And Prosperity
Agreed. My point is that neither morality nor prosperity is relative.
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=174189)
Date: July 18, 2004 03:31 PM
Author: Commandanté Pachuco
Gringos...it is all over for you. You have lost your Freedom.
Pretty soon...your floors will not need mopping by me...you will have nothing better to do. My brother Chico sells good used mops. Hahaha
You will have Señor Bush President-For-Life...and you better look happy screaming God Bless Señor Bush...Long Live Señor Bush...at the top of your voices.
Too bad...
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166133)
Date: July 20, 2004 03:44 PM
Author: barbara patton
Subject: immigration/mexicans
senor - as an immigrant from South Africa I can understand why you are laughing at the Americans and perhaps consider them to be bigots - as well as accuse them of stealing half of Mexico (Texas, New Mexico and California) and it is thought that it is the Mexicans "right" to get back "their country" hence the overpopulation of Mexicans in the lower South and West USA. I also believe(living in Texas) that 99percent of the Mexicans are illegal. Granted the Mexicans are working damn hard at lowly jobs for minimum wage - that is their legal agenda - and of course sell drugs to American juveniles to have all the material things their heart desires, thereby eroding the very roots of this American population. The strongest thing that the Mexicans have in their favour is Family Ties and Bonds - that is where their strength lies. Good for them, whereas the white Americans do not "stick together" neither do they help each other. Yes, sure when it comes to a tornado disaster then their hand will be outstretched - but at grass roots level this does not exsist, more is the pity. When Bush came into power he promised that he would "split" the INS to accomodate the illegal Mexicans. This did not happen and after 5 years I still wait on the sidelines and have to deal with a paralized INS who is manned in San Antonio and Dallas by Mexicans who help the Mexican immigrant to get all the papers etc. etc.most speedily. Mine have been lost by the INS twice. Yes, they work with and for their people whereas the Americans are a house divided, which, according to history must and will eventually fall. Inertia is what has broken the back of the camel USA and the illegal immigrants are the ones that are doing it. What can be done about this sorry situation? as far as the polititians on this country are concerned - nothing. Please Senor, how much does a broom and/or a mop cost and will a white South African be able to buy one at a special price?
(http://65.88.90.51/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=3&Message_ID=166884)